Natella Speranskaya: How did you discover the Fourth Political Theory? And how would you evaluate its chances of becoming a major ideology of the 21st century?
Manuel Ochsenreiter: Since a certain time I try to follow the developments in Russia, especially Prof. Alexandr Dugin. So it is not a coincidence to get in touch with the Fourth Political Theory. You are asking about the chances. Let me say it like this: The west is actually trapped in its own liberalism. It seems right now that there is no way out because the liberal mainstream political opinion doesn´t accept any alternative ideas. It is like digesting yourself with the same acid over and over again. In my opinion, the Fourth Political Theory could be a medical cure for that sick intellectual situation. It can be a way out of the liberal hamster wheel. And more and more people are looking for such an exit.
Natella Speranskaya: Leo Strauss when commenting on the fundamental work of Carl Schmitt The Concept of the Political notes that despite all radical critique of liberalism incorporated in it Schmitt does not follow it through since his critique remains within the scope of liberalism”. “His anti-Liberal tendencies, – claims Strauss, - remain constrained by “systematics of liberal thought” that has not been overcome so far, which – as Schmitt himself admits – “despite all failures cannot be substituted by any other system in today’s Europe. What would you identify as a solution to the problem of overcoming the liberal discourse? Could you consider the Fourth Political Theory by Alexander Dugin to be such a solution? The theory that is beyond the three major ideologies of the 20th century – Liberalism, Communism and Fascism, and that is against the Liberal doctrine.
Manuel Ochsenreiter: First of all, the liberal doctrine is a totalitarian doctrine. Convinced liberals hate to hear that. They even would deny that it is a “doctrine”. But the reality is: The world wide liberalism and the postmodernism of “values” seem to be more totalitarian than communism, fascism or any –isms before. Liberalism doesn´t accept alternative ideas coexisting beside it. It shows its ugly totalitarian face every day all over the world and its sharpest sword is hypocrisy. The liberal “tolerance”, one of the most mentioned and beloved liberal values just enjoy other liberals. There is no tolerance towards non-liberals. The west showed a couple of times in the past towards some countries who didn’t adjust to this liberal world order, what that can mean at the end: If other societies, people, and countries are not convinced by NGOs, “civil society” and other forms of “western help”, they will be convinced by drones and Cruise missiles. The liberal west tells the beloved stories about “human rights” violations to convince the western societies about the necessity of such military operations. Liberals liberate with money or bombs. The choice is upto the “backwarded” aim. But at the end, everybody knows the “open society” (Karl Popper) means in reality “open market”, “free speech” means “liberal speech” and “freedom of choice” means “McDonalds or Burger King”. There is even a liberal “new speech” for these things: Military ground offensives are now “humanitarian zones”, air raids are “installing a no-flight zone” and ugly primitive Russian girls urge the west to shout “Free Pussy riot!”.
Every established intellectual, politician or media company moves inside this totalitarian liberal system. For example you will not find any established political party in the German parliament that doesn´t claim to be “also liberal”. Our universities “research” about “identities”, “gender”, and “culture” to change this or that. The new liberal types of human being don´t have a heritage, homeland or cultural identity. Even the gender can be changed. We could consider that as a type of slapstick comedy if it wouldn´t be so serious, because it means a type of destruction of basics and values, which might be hard to repair.
So Prof. Dugin’s theory shows an emergency exit out of this totalitarian system. It is like opening a window to let some fresh air into the western paralyzed intellectual environment. But the liberalism is not a weak ideology which would wait for its defeat.
Natella Speranskaya: Do you agree that today there are “two Europes”: the one – the liberal one (incorporating the idea of “open society”, human rights, registration of same-sex marriages, etc.) and the other Europe (“a different Europe”) – politically engaged, thinker, intellectual, spiritual, the one that considers the status quo and domination of liberal discourse as a real disaster and the betrayal of the European tradition. How would you evaluate chances of victory of a “different Europe” over the ”first” one?
Manuel Ochsenreiter: This reminds me to the “old Europe” and the “new Europe” Donald Rumsfeld was talking about in 2003. The “old Europe” was the one that refused to support the US in the Iraq war, especially Germany and France, and the “new Europe” joined the „coalition of the willing“. But of course you mean something else with your question. There is certainly a “different Europe”. We wouldn´t be talking if it didn´t exist. In all the European countries you see certain types of intellectual resistance against the liberal totalitarian system. I would even call this type of Europe the “real” one. Because the official “Europe” is just a weird construction that denies traditions and differences, everything what makes the rich nature of Europe and the Europeans.
The “real Europe” is everywhere, where intellectuals, journalists, and politicians turn their back to Brussels and the liberal system. You find it in a huge amount of magazines, newspapers, internet forums, and political organizations all over the continent. They do it without any powerful support from other countries, just with their idealism. There are no NGOs or other institutions that fund that important work. But this shows exactly that type of these new political grassroots.
Natella Speranskaya: “There is nothing more tragic than a failure to understand the historical moment we are currently going through; - notes Alain de Benoist – this is the moment of postmodern globalization”. The French philosopher emphasizes the significance of the issue of a new Nomos of the Earth or a way of establishing international relations. What do you think the fourth Nomos will be like? Would you agree that the new Nomos is going to be Eurasian and multipolar (transition from universum to pluriversum)?
Manuel Ochsenreiter: Western liberal propaganda always claims: “Even if we wanted, we couldn´t do something else because it would result in violence and war!” They spread panic and fear among the people. You have to imagine, our German politicians tell us that even if we Europeans would abolish the Euro currency, we might end up in a war. The postmodern globalization is presented as the only single way for the future. I spoke about liberal hypocrisy before. The truth is that the way of globalization is a painful and bloody one as we can see in many countries with western “liberation” attempts. It is a hamster wheel of wars and more wars. The longer it goes the more blood is spilt. This logic is as simple as cruel.
Why is it like this? After the downfall of the Soviet Union and the communist eastern block, western political scientists (Charles Krauthammer, Francis Fukuyama and many others) welcomed more or less the “unipolar moment”; one world with one pole which was the west. This idea was like a western “idyll”. With “Western democracy” and “western freedom” spreading all over the world also to the last little corner, mankind will face a long-term, a “final” period of peace and prosperity. Although we see every day in the news the evidence of failure of this ideology, the west still works on it. As I already said, since the end of the Cold war and the geopolitical attempts of the west to install this unipolar idea, we witness the chaotic and violent results of this sort of geopolitics.
A multipolar international order is not just the answer. It is a logical result. The question is how will this multipolar order be organized? A well-organized multipolar world would not just bring stability, but would also be a great intellectual chance of cultural exchange on a really high level. It recognizes the value of “difference” while the west today propagandizes worldwide equality and unity. The local and regional cultures would have the chance of free development, tradition, and cultural identity (both is denied by the western ideology) that could prosper. The actual western hegemony with the means of NGOs and media tries to push down these things, but not forever. And of course Eurasia will play an important role.
Natella Speranskaya: Do you agree that the era of the white European human race has ended, and the future will be predetermined by Asian cultures and societies?
Manuel Ochsenreiter: Today’s Europe is losing its human substance. It shows once more that the liberal ideology is a suicidal idea. On the one hand it fights against families and promotes for example abortion; on the other hand it campaigns extremely for mass immigration. The consequence is extinction of the Europeans. How long it takes is pure mathematics. How much the face of Europe already has changed you can witness in any European capital between Lisbon and Athens. We cannot say that the quality of the human resources really become better by immigration even if we would consider that as a neutral or even “positive” development as the liberals do. In contradiction, we face a lot of problems with immigrant communities. The liberal ideology refuses to see the reasons where they are: in ethnic backgrounds. They just speak about an alleged “discrimination” of the migrant communities and about the alleged social injustice the migrants are facing. Politics denying ethnic differences deny the reality.
Of course this development weakens Europe. We are busier more and more with “integration”, what means with ourselves. You have really to be an anti-realist to see a benefit in that suicidal development. But this exactly is told by the liberal dogma. This means automatically that other entities and cultures who don´t suffer under such development will have an advantage against a weak Europe.
Natella Speranskaya: Do you consider Russia to be a part of Europe or do you accept the view that Russia and Europe represent two different civilizations?
Manuel Ochsenreiter: I don´t see a contradiction. I personally consider Russia as a European country, of course with diverse ethnic groups. And of course it has its own culture, traditions, and identity. But every European country has its own culture and traditions. The only difference is, we Europeans are told nonstop by the Brussels propaganda that we are all somehow “the same”. The Russians have the benefit not being bombarded by that ridiculous nonsense. For me as a German, Russia should be our close friend and ally. We share a lot of interests, we share a common history of course with ups and downs – at least Moscow is closer to us than Washington. A close relationship to Russia would be in the national interest of Berlin and Moscow.
Natella Speranskaya: Contemporary ideologies are based on the principle of secularity. Would you predict the return of religion, the return of sacrality? If so, in what form? Do you consider it to be Islam, Christianity, Paganism or any other forms of religion?
Manuel Ochsenreiter: When people start worshipping their bank accounts, the horoscopes in the yellow press magazines or their luxury cars what does that tell us about the alleged absence of religion? When it is forbidden to deny liberalism as it used to be forbidden to deny the existence of god in the Middle Ages? The “secularity” in today’s Europe just refers to the power of the organized religion, but obviously not to the needs of the people. When the religion disappears they find something else. In Berlin housewives are running into Buddhist temples because they adore the eternal smile of the Dalai Lama or the haircut of Richard Gere. Of course they don´t understand anything about the spirituality of Buddhism. Trendy Businessmen do some yoga exercises. Others start doing esoteric things. But this is also an element of liberalism: superficiality. While this is happening, the organized churches are more and more weakened themselves by the liberal virus. Sometimes it is really hard to see the difference between a protestant bishop and a liberal teacher. It is somehow ironic that God comes back to Europe in these days as a Muslim migrant. All of a sudden people go on the streets to protest against blasphemy. And this takes place at the same time when “Christian” clerics in Germany seriously support the blasphemy group “Pussy riot”.
So we see on the one side the spiritual needs of the people, but on the other side also today’s Christian churches’ refusal to serve those needs. Of course there are also some exceptions. But the general situation especially in Germany and other central and western European countries is like that.
I personally don´t believe that a new type of paganism might be a dominant religious power in Europe. Why? Because it would be a pure artificial concept for the people. The strength of the churches in the past was their ties to the traditional daily life of the people. Especially Catholicism perfected to adopt and integrate old pagan traditions in its system. If Europe recovers, I am sure that maybe a new type of European Christianity would also recover. It would be a logic thing. When liberalism starts to disappear, it´s totalitarian system will also disappear. Even the Bishops of liberalism like George Soros would lose their power. But if Europe falls, the last of the “three Romes” will be Moscow – and the only resistance against the liberalist doctrine in Europe will be done by the Muslim communities while the organized Christians celebrate their own downfall.